Interview taken from "The Friendliest Black Artist in America"
William Pope L.
Interviewer: Lowery Stokes Sims
Sims, Lowery. William Pope. L : The Friendliest Black Artist in America. By Mark H. Bessire. New York: MIT P, 2002.
In his interview Pope L. talks about the Black African Male and the concept of presence/ versus lack. The idea that ideas of masculine is rooted in presence, that the idea of blackness is rooted in lack. How does this fit into your work as its image has both elements?
I do feel these words. Recently I have been asked to define my work in terms of why use myself as my model, and also what does race have to do with my work. I see the lack represented two fold. One that if a so-called white artis (read male) no one asks about race unless there is some other signifier present. So it is the lack of whiteness which prompts the question. I have found that sometimes people talk about masculinity and issues around that- but that begins to be an assumption placed upon the work and the artist without the question being asked. The second areana is of course my work and my need to do performative works with myself as the model. I feel like it is a need, an internal need to speak for myself to be heard and that certainly comes out of lack. It may stem from what Pope L. is talking about. I wrote some thoughts down for Sonali on race and work on race and while I did not use the word lack, I did use the word deficit. My desire is not to work out of deficit, or a sense of deficit.(in relation to race).
The theme of masculinity and blackness are running themes in this article. What is your sense of this negotiation of blackness seeing as how the two seem two be tethered as problematic- something to overcome?
Pope L. says that what it is to be black is a negotiation. The idea of a black race is at the same time a factual fiction in America. There is no black race as it is social construction based on power. He speaks of these masks of blackness. But on the other hand there is no solid heretige for black people in this country that extends past these borders- concretely anyway. So there is this “black race” the black diaspora I think is apart of this but also that there was a erasure of memory not just of geography. So there are nooks and cranies in which to negotiate what it means to be black and it keeps changing and must be changed, accepted and rejected. It is room to maneuver.
Wednesday, October 1, 2008
This is an official diversion::
Sonali said I should write about why I should and should not do work about race. This is the first of several internal conversations. These are not supposed to be difinative but a work in process of my thinking.
A case for why or why not- Race
If I were to make art about race only two reasons stand out. One would be to seememly make reactionary art which would stem from a primal point of personal pain in expereining the effects of descrimination. The other would be to attempt in dismantaling the constructs of the idiosyncrasies of race and racism. This would seem a natural extension of my altruistic attitudes about race. My fundamental standpoint on race comes from my understanding of the origins or the necesisity of establishing race which is monetary and physical exploitation. I understand that people have prejudices and prefere the familiar over the foreign. To have these dispositions are as natural as they are human. I feel however that in order to exploit someone you must play off those fears and defense mechanism that make people stick to their own. Money and the fear of loosing a status of power/privelidge has the power to intensify fear and distrust into hatred. Once those who attain power usually find ways to segment those who might disrupt that status quo. I had an irish friend who when shown a old passage out of a history book that stated “the Irish are the niggers of Europe.” was so taken aback all he could say was that the Irish weren’t niggers, that they weren’t black. He couldn’t see that there were twoo things being said in the same sentence. Yes the literal statement likens the Irish to black people, but in reality what the statement was saying was the Irish are the most dispised people of European decent, according to whom ever said such a thing. This is unfortunately for an Irish Person even worse than being openly disrespected as Irish that the concept of being black might actually be worse. Unfortunately for black people when called a nigger there is very little one can say to disbleive that they are talking about you- however I have seen some people bite on the line “well if they talking about stupid black people then yeah they’re talking about niggers…” Not the case. I also take the history of the United States. Before there were white people and black people there were distinct European ethnicities and the Irish were pretty low on the totem pole, so were the Italians, but as soon as there was the idea of a new race vying for economic prosperity there was a cementation of what was considered white. Now I realize that there are some other factores such as the melting pot of American homogeny to contend with but the time roughly coincided. But the reality was that if you were poor and in the south what race would afford a white indentured servant wasn’t much better off than a black slave.
Slavery made it’s way round the ethnic block so to speak in America first starting with the American Indian, made it’s way to the Chinese and then I believe to the African slave. That is why they say the Chinese built the great American railroads, and then ultimately it was the poor, andless vagrants and criminals.
I do not want to sit here and knit pick but there is an anger here with in me that exist that has nothing to do with race other than to aknowledge the fact that racism becomes institutionalized though decmination of power and, well great PR. If you tell people that they can’t have a job at your company because you don’t want to pay them $2 you’ll be in trouble. But if you tell people they can’t have a job because they won’t work for $1 but a Mexican will then the Mexicans are in trouble. All of a sudden it’s the Mexicans who are taking all the jobs. Fear of loosing one’s place or status with in the status quo to another especially when “another” is the “other.”
So if I say I want to talk specificly about race then I feel I must talk about that. The definition of how race is constructed and deceminated. But for me it is such a taxing road to cover. Racism is determined by trying to hide behind something else. Here I must confess that I do like to talk about race in conversation and debate. In conversational mode I feel very well versed. I have a languge that most of the time I can wield very well. I feel like with art I may not have that language with which to properly discuss such things. Even in a conversation there are those time you miss and things go afoul and misunderstood. I hate loosing that conversation because it feels like when I loose it gives credence to such preposterous concepts as “reverse racism.” There is no such thing as racism in reverse. Racism is racism, but here again your saying two things with the same sentence. One is “hey that’s not fair!” and the other is “your not supposed to do that/ now it’s not me has the upper hand!” It’s so nuanced.
Having said that if I were to handel race artisticly it is like I said hopefully born out of the tradition of tolerance and equality from which I am sown. However I know that I have a vindictive side to my personality. It has the voice of the victim that delights in the idea of the tables being turned. That is a hard wound to heal and I am getting older and more set in my ways and experiences.
If I were to do work with race It would have to be a mission of understanding and teaching. A mission steeped in healing for which I know many of us a badly in need of. That’s why I SHOULD do work on race. That is the only reason to do work on race, to combat the malignancy of history and present wrongs that are waged in the name of terrorism, illegal immigrants and the retaliation the comes along with it.
But most of all to combat racism is to attempt to erase the eccomnomic weapon that has been and is still used to splinter the world into guarded kingdoms. Sexism is the same in this way. Everything that holds true for the illusion of race hold true for the illusion of sex ad gender.
As I said previously if I were to do anything about being black I would like it to be about exploration of ethnicity…but there was one thing I did leave out. African American ethnicity in America is a much different problem to tackle that say the ethnicity of an Italian American, mostly due to the fact that Africa is not a country and is not a small region consisting of an overall homogenous larger region. The African American is often displaced within their own history. Its is not unlike the”Jew.” People of the Jewish faith are not from Irael unless they came from Israel. Many existed as Europeans and carpatheans and even “Africans.” What I mean to say is that there may be no common concept of shared ethnicity outside of sharing in the concept of race. One might hope that a concept of a shared spiritual homeland might talke root like Israel for the jewish. But that also seems to be a function of power and privelidge. No one carved out a place amist the many waring and impoverished African states and stated “displaced black people of the world…your new homeland!”
A case for why - Race
If I were to make art about race it would be to attempt in dismantling the constructs of the idiosyncrasies of race and racism. This instance would seem a natural extension of my altruistic attitudes about race. My fundamental standpoint on race comes from my understanding of the origins or the necessity of establishing race, which is monetary and physical exploitation. I understand that people have prejudices and prefer the familiar to the foreign. To have these dispositions are as natural as they are human. I feel however that in order to exploit someone you must play off those fears and defense mechanism that make people stick to their own. Money and the fear of loosing a status of power/privilege has the power to intensify fear and distrust into hatred.
So if I say I want to talk specifically about race then I feel I must talk about that. The definition of how race is constructed and disseminated.
If I were to do work with race it would have to be a mission of understanding and teaching. A mission steeped in healing for which I know many of us a badly in need of. That’s why I SHOULD do work on race. That is the only reason to do work on race, to combat the malignancy of history and present wrongs that are waged in the name of combating terrorism, illegal immigration.
But most of all to combat racism is to attempt to erase the economic weapon that has been and is still used to splinter the world into guarded kingdoms. Sexism is the same in this way. Everything that holds true for the illusion of race holds true for the illusion of sex ad gender.
The only odd problem about talking about the so called “black race” in America. African American ethnicity in America is a much different problem to tackle that say the ethnicity of an Italian American, mostly due to the fact that Africa is not a country and is not a small region consisting of an overall homogenous larger region. The African American is often displaced within their own history. Its is not unlike Jewish. People of the Jewish faith are not Israeli unless they actually came from Israel. Many existed as Europeans and Carpathians and even Africans. What I mean to say is that there may be no common concept of shared ethnicity outside of sharing in the concept of race. One might hope that a concept of a shared spiritual homeland might take root like Israel for the Jewish. But that also seems to be a function of power and privilege. No one carved out a place amidst the many warring and impoverished African states and stated, “Displaced black people of the world…your new homeland!” There is only an occasional black positivism/community trend that speak to brotherhood and kinship.
Sonali said I should write about why I should and should not do work about race. This is the first of several internal conversations. These are not supposed to be difinative but a work in process of my thinking.
A case for why or why not- Race
If I were to make art about race only two reasons stand out. One would be to seememly make reactionary art which would stem from a primal point of personal pain in expereining the effects of descrimination. The other would be to attempt in dismantaling the constructs of the idiosyncrasies of race and racism. This would seem a natural extension of my altruistic attitudes about race. My fundamental standpoint on race comes from my understanding of the origins or the necesisity of establishing race which is monetary and physical exploitation. I understand that people have prejudices and prefere the familiar over the foreign. To have these dispositions are as natural as they are human. I feel however that in order to exploit someone you must play off those fears and defense mechanism that make people stick to their own. Money and the fear of loosing a status of power/privelidge has the power to intensify fear and distrust into hatred. Once those who attain power usually find ways to segment those who might disrupt that status quo. I had an irish friend who when shown a old passage out of a history book that stated “the Irish are the niggers of Europe.” was so taken aback all he could say was that the Irish weren’t niggers, that they weren’t black. He couldn’t see that there were twoo things being said in the same sentence. Yes the literal statement likens the Irish to black people, but in reality what the statement was saying was the Irish are the most dispised people of European decent, according to whom ever said such a thing. This is unfortunately for an Irish Person even worse than being openly disrespected as Irish that the concept of being black might actually be worse. Unfortunately for black people when called a nigger there is very little one can say to disbleive that they are talking about you- however I have seen some people bite on the line “well if they talking about stupid black people then yeah they’re talking about niggers…” Not the case. I also take the history of the United States. Before there were white people and black people there were distinct European ethnicities and the Irish were pretty low on the totem pole, so were the Italians, but as soon as there was the idea of a new race vying for economic prosperity there was a cementation of what was considered white. Now I realize that there are some other factores such as the melting pot of American homogeny to contend with but the time roughly coincided. But the reality was that if you were poor and in the south what race would afford a white indentured servant wasn’t much better off than a black slave.
Slavery made it’s way round the ethnic block so to speak in America first starting with the American Indian, made it’s way to the Chinese and then I believe to the African slave. That is why they say the Chinese built the great American railroads, and then ultimately it was the poor, andless vagrants and criminals.
I do not want to sit here and knit pick but there is an anger here with in me that exist that has nothing to do with race other than to aknowledge the fact that racism becomes institutionalized though decmination of power and, well great PR. If you tell people that they can’t have a job at your company because you don’t want to pay them $2 you’ll be in trouble. But if you tell people they can’t have a job because they won’t work for $1 but a Mexican will then the Mexicans are in trouble. All of a sudden it’s the Mexicans who are taking all the jobs. Fear of loosing one’s place or status with in the status quo to another especially when “another” is the “other.”
So if I say I want to talk specificly about race then I feel I must talk about that. The definition of how race is constructed and deceminated. But for me it is such a taxing road to cover. Racism is determined by trying to hide behind something else. Here I must confess that I do like to talk about race in conversation and debate. In conversational mode I feel very well versed. I have a languge that most of the time I can wield very well. I feel like with art I may not have that language with which to properly discuss such things. Even in a conversation there are those time you miss and things go afoul and misunderstood. I hate loosing that conversation because it feels like when I loose it gives credence to such preposterous concepts as “reverse racism.” There is no such thing as racism in reverse. Racism is racism, but here again your saying two things with the same sentence. One is “hey that’s not fair!” and the other is “your not supposed to do that/ now it’s not me has the upper hand!” It’s so nuanced.
Having said that if I were to handel race artisticly it is like I said hopefully born out of the tradition of tolerance and equality from which I am sown. However I know that I have a vindictive side to my personality. It has the voice of the victim that delights in the idea of the tables being turned. That is a hard wound to heal and I am getting older and more set in my ways and experiences.
If I were to do work with race It would have to be a mission of understanding and teaching. A mission steeped in healing for which I know many of us a badly in need of. That’s why I SHOULD do work on race. That is the only reason to do work on race, to combat the malignancy of history and present wrongs that are waged in the name of terrorism, illegal immigrants and the retaliation the comes along with it.
But most of all to combat racism is to attempt to erase the eccomnomic weapon that has been and is still used to splinter the world into guarded kingdoms. Sexism is the same in this way. Everything that holds true for the illusion of race hold true for the illusion of sex ad gender.
As I said previously if I were to do anything about being black I would like it to be about exploration of ethnicity…but there was one thing I did leave out. African American ethnicity in America is a much different problem to tackle that say the ethnicity of an Italian American, mostly due to the fact that Africa is not a country and is not a small region consisting of an overall homogenous larger region. The African American is often displaced within their own history. Its is not unlike the”Jew.” People of the Jewish faith are not from Irael unless they came from Israel. Many existed as Europeans and carpatheans and even “Africans.” What I mean to say is that there may be no common concept of shared ethnicity outside of sharing in the concept of race. One might hope that a concept of a shared spiritual homeland might talke root like Israel for the jewish. But that also seems to be a function of power and privelidge. No one carved out a place amist the many waring and impoverished African states and stated “displaced black people of the world…your new homeland!”
A case for why - Race
If I were to make art about race it would be to attempt in dismantling the constructs of the idiosyncrasies of race and racism. This instance would seem a natural extension of my altruistic attitudes about race. My fundamental standpoint on race comes from my understanding of the origins or the necessity of establishing race, which is monetary and physical exploitation. I understand that people have prejudices and prefer the familiar to the foreign. To have these dispositions are as natural as they are human. I feel however that in order to exploit someone you must play off those fears and defense mechanism that make people stick to their own. Money and the fear of loosing a status of power/privilege has the power to intensify fear and distrust into hatred.
So if I say I want to talk specifically about race then I feel I must talk about that. The definition of how race is constructed and disseminated.
If I were to do work with race it would have to be a mission of understanding and teaching. A mission steeped in healing for which I know many of us a badly in need of. That’s why I SHOULD do work on race. That is the only reason to do work on race, to combat the malignancy of history and present wrongs that are waged in the name of combating terrorism, illegal immigration.
But most of all to combat racism is to attempt to erase the economic weapon that has been and is still used to splinter the world into guarded kingdoms. Sexism is the same in this way. Everything that holds true for the illusion of race holds true for the illusion of sex ad gender.
The only odd problem about talking about the so called “black race” in America. African American ethnicity in America is a much different problem to tackle that say the ethnicity of an Italian American, mostly due to the fact that Africa is not a country and is not a small region consisting of an overall homogenous larger region. The African American is often displaced within their own history. Its is not unlike Jewish. People of the Jewish faith are not Israeli unless they actually came from Israel. Many existed as Europeans and Carpathians and even Africans. What I mean to say is that there may be no common concept of shared ethnicity outside of sharing in the concept of race. One might hope that a concept of a shared spiritual homeland might take root like Israel for the Jewish. But that also seems to be a function of power and privilege. No one carved out a place amidst the many warring and impoverished African states and stated, “Displaced black people of the world…your new homeland!” There is only an occasional black positivism/community trend that speak to brotherhood and kinship.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)